Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Success isn't given, it's earned. And earning it means becoming the person who deserves it. The bottom line is where we cut through the chaos to simplify success, uncovering the strategies, mindset and resilience it takes to win. Real stories, expert insights and practical tools. Because the only way to the top is by putting in the wall. This is the bottom line.
Welcome to the Bottom Line, where strategy meets clarity and resilience becomes results.
I'm your host, Ryan Herpin, and each week we bring you insights to help leaders cut through uncertainty and ultimately make better decisions. Today we have an incredible guest. Today's guest is Stephen Hillman, a highly respected family law attorney and super lawyer with nearly three, really over three decades of experience in advising clients through some of the most difficult legal transitions you can think of. Anything from divorce and custody disputes to risk mitigation and high stakes negotiation. Stephen, welcome to the show. It's such a pleasure to have you here.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Thanks for having me on, Ryan.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Well, today, you know, there's endless things we could talk about with my background in consulting and helping leaders and business owners. You know, one thing that I really want to focus on today and in this segment is I want to understand and try to understand how legal challenges, you know, intersect with leadership and decision making, you know, both personally and professional.
So with that being said, I've got a couple heavy hitting questions to dive right into this.
So to really start off, you know, the first question that really kind of comes to mind here is, you know, for leaders and business owners, why is legal strategy as important as a financial or operational strategy?
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Well, they should be walking hand in hand.
Frankly, anytime that you're looking at what is your leadership role, you've got a vast array of legal responsibilities pulling behind you as well.
So anytime you're going to be stepping into leadership, you have to know what is your foundation of legal responsibilities?
What are the ramifications for the decisions that you make?
So you have responsibility, too. If you are in a closely held corporation, you've got responsibility to your other shareholders.
In a larger corporation, you have the responsibility to all of these shareholders.
In my realm and family, you have a responsibility to your spouse, you have a responsibility to your family. All those need to be taken into consideration. Any decision that you're making, and especially when you're looking at is this a decision that's going to hit home, literally? Am I talking about having to do know capital investment and is a capital call into a partnership? I'm talking about trying to diversify and limiting resources to be able to divert to research and development.
Any of those decisions impact what you bring home.
And it's important you have open conversations with everybody involved in that decision tree. And all of those decision makers also have all of those legal responsibilities.
So it's a stepping stone. Anytime you're looking at what do I want to do next? The law is your stepping stone to be able to make sure that you've got yourself covered in your clients covered.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: You know, that makes complete sense. You know, from 10,000ft. You know, one would, at least I would used to think that, you know, having a financial strategy, operational strategy is, is paramount obviously to the success of a business and operation overall. But, you know, and I would think of kind of like a legal strategy as like a side thing. You know, it's neither here nor there. You kind of don't really have to think about it until something crazy happens. But, you know, as I've grown in my career and established as, you know, a consultant, it's like, okay, it's just as important as any other strategy. You got to be prepared, you've got to pay attention. And with that being said, you know, I want to dive into risk a little bit more because, you know, risk mitigation is something that I focus on constantly in the financial side, the operational side. But how do you help clients think ahead about risk instead of, you know, reacting when it hits?
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Well, and, and part of that is making sure they're looking ahead.
It's real easy as a business owner to be stuck in the grind, watching where you're putting your feet, eyes to feet forward. You're not looking ahead, you're not looking at the next 10 to 12ft, you're not looking at the next 10 to 12 years.
But that's what your business plan should have implemented, right? You should have those, those placeholders, those signposts, to be able to make sure, am I on track? Am I doing what my plan said that I would be doing had I made a course change and not taken into account downstream, what that decision makes we have to do now as compared to what I had planned to do when I initiated the business?
So that sort of forward thinking, you know, very few people, when they start a business plan, go all the way through to figure out what's my exit strategy, right? Am I, am I going to take this, you know, there's, there's, you know, the worst exit strategy you can have is feet first out the, out the door.
So what do you do if you have some kind of transition in plan, in effect Am I going to be able to meet that goal? Am I going to be able to say, okay, in five years, I want to be able to hand this off to my senior vp?
Okay, what are you doing to get your senior VP prepared? How are you anticipating that transition? If I'm retiring, right, if I want to wrap things up, Lining up a business is just as complicated as handing off.
So what are your plans? Have you taken that into account? How you protected your clients, your vendors, your employees, all that advanced planning? You need to have your eyes on that horizon even when you're watching where you're putting your feet.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: You know, it's. It's kind of funny that you say that. You immediately made me think, you know, somewhere, once upon a time, someone said it's okay to have your head in the clouds as long as you have your feet firmly planted on the ground. And the way that I kind of look at that in business, as you've mentioned, exit strategy and the plans there, you know, that's something too often business owners are not thinking about a concept. I work with my business partner and I, we've, we've worked on this a lot, and it's, don't start something until you finished it. And what we mean is, see the plan all the way through, plan ahead, look at the future, come with your access strategy, come up with the if this, then this. What'll change? What will happen if, you know, if you have a change of heart, what might that look like? Being prepared a lot of the time to me seems like just understanding what could go wrong and creating a contingency for what that looks like. But too often, people get real hyped up and fired up about something. They dive into it and don't see the whole thing through. And honestly, I see that turning into legal problems constantly in the world of business. But, you know, one thing I'm curious about, whether it's the personal, professional side. You know, in your experience, what's one legal mistake you see leaders, you know, overlook early on,
[00:07:06] Speaker B: early on, most, most of the time, the, the decision at formation, it kind of forecloses a certain amount of ability to take an opportunity. Right? So if, when I form this as a, let's say I formed as a partnership and I've got two other partners in the mix, and then somewhere down the line, the opportunity arises, we're going to be bringing in another partner, somebody wants to be able to infuse capital into my business.
I am super excited to be able to have somebody who is excited about the project. As I am, who's going to bring in additional funding, and I'm diluting everybody's interest by doing so. And I'm shaving off that much of an ability to be able to get profit out or be able to maintain business, business margins, that sort of thing.
And that's where a lot of people, I think when they're looking at that opportunity that comes up is what's the downstream effect? What does it mean? You know, it's great in the moment to be able to have that come up and then it's okay. Now we've got to rework all of these different. And you know, sometimes it is, as you've alluded to, you know, the legal work of rewriting contracts and potentially expanding, amending contracts and that sort of thing, down to the point of you have to reform, potentially you have to reform your business and go all the way back to square one and now started over effectively because you've now got a different view in the enterprise. You're going to be figuring out, what are we going to be doing now that we got this infusion, now that we've got this next person, has that changed everything that we have planned?
I don't think very many people look at that and try to figure out, okay, if, as you say, if this, then what.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: You know, that's a good point. You know, early on, I've definitely seen a lot of mistakes when it comes to operating agreements and bylaws. As a matter of fact, a colleague of mine is currently going through a small legal battle from a company that he actually exited, Goodness, five, six, seven years ago.
And there's problems that are rising and it goes all the way back down to the bylaws. There were loopholes and problems and issues in the creation of this business and the way things were prepared to where even now, well, after an exit, it's causing problems and it's. I definitely can agree with you, that's gotta be one of the biggest mistakes people overlook is in the formation of the business. What are those safeguards put into place? How do you get things black and white, clear and concise?
No, I'm. One thing I kind of like to look at is prepare for the worst case, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You know, none of us, you know, especially in partnerships, it's not like we want to have problems or want to go into a battle or, or want to try to fight for, you know, our, our equity, whatnot, but it's, it's just hope for the best, expect the Worst. So build safeguards into the business where things can be agreed upon, controlled, and no one's, you know, shares are diluted. Like, that's, that's a big problem. But how do you help someone stay grounded when they're facing that high pressure, legal, you know, decision?
[00:10:16] Speaker B: Well, in, in now, I'm, I'm a family law practitioner, so I deal with, with business owners and usually the, the only other people involved are the spouse's asylum partner.
So my business owner is now facing, I've got to buy out my silent partner. And a lot of times it's almost like a hostile takeover, right?
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: They don't necessarily want out of that business. They, they have spent their years and invested their time out of sight to be able to make sure that that business can become a success.
They will either want to stay in that business or they want to be adequately compensated.
That's fungible, right?
California, for family law purposes, the relationship between a husband and wife goes to the corporations code and business owners. So we have to be as well versed in what these decisions mean from that fiduciary relationship, that corporations relationship, as we do, you know, what's for dinner.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: That's a really good point. You know, that's a really good point. You know, I'm glad we get to dive in a little bit on the business side of things, and I'm excited to dive a little more into the family side of things as well, because it does matter. It makes all the difference to everybody, but to our audience, when we return, we'll be talking about negotiation and how leaders can get the best outcomes without, you know, unnecessary conflicts, whether that's business and life, but definitely on the family side. How can we negotiate and navigate these things without everything getting really messy? So grab some coffee, stretch out, we'll be right back on the Bottom Line.
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Now we are back in a powerful conversation with great Stephen Hillman. This man has got so much experience and knowledge in, in the world of law, it's very diverse in the sense of when you do what he does, you have to know a lot. But in this segment, I really want to dive into how negotiation isn't just legal, it's strategic.
Right? It's it, it. Whether it's Life, business, there is strategy involved and let's reframe a little how we look at it. So, Stephen, thank you for being here. It's such a pleasure.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Thanks for having me out.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: So now I'm curious, how do you define negotiation in a legal context versus, you know, like a business leadership context?
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Well, they're, they're almost the same.
But when you're, especially if you're the one who's, who is in the leadership, you have to try to marshal your employees or people who you have oversight, you have to try to persuade them to your position.
You've got a different agenda than they do.
If I'm, as an advocate, if I'm negotiating on behalf of a client, on the other hand, I have to keep in mind a whole number of factors.
The key though is ultimately is my client's agenda fair?
Because it's much more difficult to argue against something that is fair as compared to, well, you know, we can see how much of an advantage one party gets out of this.
In some circumstances that's unavoidable. In some circumstances there is a zero sum game. It's not a win win for everybody. And that's by design.
In family, you try to get as much of a win win as you can. But again, by design, some things are not meant to be equally. Equally one.
Right.
So how do I prepare my client coming into that? Well, the first thing I try to remind my clients is we're not negotiating with ourselves.
We're not setting the wrong agenda. When we step in and say, here is where we're coming from.
We want to be able to make sure that when we're coming in, we're as far to our side as fairness dictates.
We can come in a little bit on a white horse, it's a little bit dusty, but we can come in and we say, look, we are ultimately asking for fair fairness when everything comes down to it.
And that has the opportunity to be able to put the other side already a little bit on their heels to have to defend their position from the perspective of, well, am I, am I being unfair?
So you can create a little bit of self doubt coming in under that perspective.
The other thing is you have to be prepared, as we said in the other segment, what's the end result?
What am I trying to get out of this?
A lot of times the opening and negotiations, you can't tell what the end goal is.
You should have your end design at the start, knowing full well how do I get to point Z from where I'm sitting today.
And if you don't know that path and don't know your obstacles, you've either got to figure out what the correct path is or reassess your goals. Because if you can't get to your goal without extraordinary circumstances happening, you know, regardless of how well you think your skills are at negotiating or what your client's success may be, you really do have to take it down to a practical aspect of is it an achievable goal?
Is it something that is going to be accepted by the other side as fair?
Because the last thing you want to do is have to go through those negotiations again.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: That's a really good point. Actually. You're bringing a lot of really good perspective in this because there's some things that are just unrealistic in the world of negotiation. You can't ask for the whole world and expect them to be like, okay, just take it all. It doesn't work like that in real life. But, you know, that does lead me to another thought here, because a lot of my audience, they're business owners, they're entrepreneurs. They're people that are trying to grow and develop and, and, and, and grind out this, this success that we have in our mind. And I want to dive into this a little bit in the sense of, you know, when it comes to divorce, unfortunately, when it comes to the breakdown of relationship and what that entails from, you know, perspective of a business owner, even myself, I'm curious, what's the difference between negotiating from fear versus negotiating from strategy?
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Well, anytime you're negotiating from fear, you're negotiating from a negative perspective. You're already starting two steps back.
If you're, if you realize. Well, let's, let's get down to something even more basic.
Anytime you're going to be entering into negotiations, you want to make sure you're on equal footing.
And if you're negotiating from fear, by definition, you are not on equal footing.
So you're already coming into the negotiations at that disadvantage. So you've got to figure out two things.
First off, is my fear based on my being unprepared, or is my fear based on after preparation, understanding where I stand in respect to my other side?
Because you're going to enter the negotiations completely different attitudes depending on what your preparedness tells you.
And if you are. And this is, this is Coach Wooden, John Wooden all over again, right? If you fail to prepare, you're prepared to fail.
So be prepared in your negotiations. Try to see all the sides that you can.
That eliminates your fear, because Ultimately, as almost everything is, it's fear of the unknown.
What is somebody going to say here that I did not see coming? What's one aspect of this negotiations? Points that I have a weak spot on?
And if you can identify your weak spots, you can figure out, can I buttress that up? Is there a way to be able to assert something in another provision that helps, that minimizes any damage from that one weak spot that I have?
That's how you have to prepare for your negotiations.
As strong as you can be, you are as prepared as you can be.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: You know, I know you can see me when you're talking and our audience can't, but to the audience, I'm over here like, darn near cheering this guy, because what's happening is he's bringing up some of the most powerful points you could think of in this topic and bringing up the fact, you know, if you fail to play and you're planning to fail, go. Goodness, that bleeds over into everything. Life, business, anything. But you're right, though. When you're trying to negotiate from fear. I mean, you're already. It's, it's. I try to think of it like this. If I'm ever in a point of negotiation, conversation, communication, I have to be in a point of authority and power, not in a bad way, but in a way where if something changes or, or goes awry, I have the upper hand or leverage. Not in a way to use it badly, but in a way to be confident. And it's all bred in preparation. You've got to be prepared because like you said, fear most of the time comes from the unknown. And the unknown is just because you're not prepared. You haven't taken the time, you haven't asked the questions, you haven't. Also, you might not have the right legal representation if there's too much unknown there and you're really afraid. But it's also something you brought up is knowing the reality of what the other side might have and what they're talking about, what they can bring to the table, the points they can bring up. That does matter, truly, and, and something. Now that hearing your perspective on this, which is extremely well developed, obviously, I mean, with all this experience. But how can, you know, people apply legal negotiation principles to, you know, their life, their team, their household, or even negotiation with a client or something.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: I mean, think of, think about my wife just had her birthday.
So as part of that, this is. This is the common tension that people have.
So do I do something on my own and try to Take control of that situation and you know, do something assertive and try to surprise her or do I let her set the agenda? We want her to be able to, to have say and figure out what's going on.
Everybody knows, you know the old saying, you know, happy wife, happy life.
But there's no difference between trying to figure out what to do for in that situation as it is when trying to set an appointment for a client.
Okay, so I have all this information I want to, I want to relay to my client. I have this, you know, these happy birthday wishes, this gift I want to give to my wife. Who's setting the agenda, who is the one in, in both of those circumstances, who's the one who is the focus and who should be setting the agenda for my wife and her birthday. She should be the priority for my client in their negotiations. They should be the priority.
I'm not dictating my terms for a contract. I'm trying to advocate for my client. I'm trying to advocate for them. So I have to put aside what my own agenda may be and use whatever sense of authority I'm able to bring in to be able to foster my clients interests.
Leading up to that is my contact, my discussions with my client to make sure we're on the same page and be able to make sure that when I'm using my authority as a deal maker to try to come into negotiations that I am fully aware and understand what's the range of negotiation from my client's perspective. Right. What's the absolute downside and what's the best upside that we can get.
So that's my agenda. That's how I come into this.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: You're coming at it from a very realistic and logical perspective. And this conversation is absolutely powerful. There's a lot of great information that we're pulling up in this conversation. Where can our audience find you? How can they reach out to you and get in contact and, and explore working with you?
[00:22:49] Speaker B: I'm ubiquitous. No, my, my website www and the letters hflg.com family law group.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: It's fantastic. You know, I love being able to present, you know, experts and people with a lot of experience and authority in fields that, that really tie to business, in life overall. And one thing I do want to bring up is that, you know, there's a, a lot of people seem to think, you know, you've got to find balance between life and, and work, but really that's just not a thing. It's, it's rhythm. Life and business go hand in hand, they go together. And when it comes to handling disputes, whether it's at home and in a marriage versus business, it all applies. You've got to have the right representation with you that's got the right experience and knows how to handle this stuff in the way that's going to work for you. So to our audience coming up, we'll explore communication under pressure and why the words we choose matter just as much as the strategy we deploy.
We are back on the bottom line, and this conversation we're having right now with Stephen is absolutely incredible.
We've dug into a lot of different stuff that applies, whether it's business, life, home, personal stuff, it doesn't matter. This is all a good conversation that you really should grab a pen and a pad for. But right now, something we're going to dive into is, you know, leaders communicate constantly in the boardroom, with teams, with stakeholders, you know, with their family members. And how we communicate under pressure makes all the difference. And I'll also add a note here, pressure in business does carry to life, and life pressure carries to business. So keep that in mind for some context here. But in this segment with Stephen, I'm really curious about the intersection of legal advocacy in leadership communication. So, Stephen, thank you again for being here. These, this interview has been incredible so far.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Thank you. It's been a great time.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: So just like before, I like to dive in with some pretty big questions that, that get us right into the topic. But, you know, in a legal setting, communication strategy can determine outcomes completely. Right. How does that translate into business leadership and then leadership as maybe a parent, as a spouse? What does that look like?
[00:25:11] Speaker B: First off, it's knowing the role that you're in. Most importantly, are you in a role where your key skill is active listening? Are you in a key role where the best thing you could do is passive listening?
And is it one where your interaction is going to either dictate the flow of the conversation or you're going to absorb the flow and try to work through it? So you've got a number of different agenda items that you have to hit when you come in.
The first and most important part about knowing what your role is is understanding where you are in negotiations. We talked previously about are you in a position of authority? Can you assume that position of authority?
I would respectfully suggest not with your spouse.
The difference between active listening and passive listening in your role relationship, when you're in a leadership position, you are active listening. You are making sure you are engaged with whomever you are talking to. And that you're verifying and validating their communication to you.
In a leadership role, the most important thing, the people who are you are supervising, the people who are you are directing, that they understand you and you understand them. And the basic communication skills are necessary to be able to make sure that your role is not being confused, that you're able to get that across at any point in time in interpersonal relationships with spouses or children, that sort of thing.
Much more passive listening. You're not going to be energetic, you're not going to be commenting on and trying to validate, trying to validate what somebody has said because you're interrupting a conversation.
And the role is different if your spouse is unloading, if your child is disclosing stuff to you.
Don't take the same prompts and propels that you use in a business meeting to try to get them to divulge or disclose more. That's not your role at that point point. At that point, your role is you're accepting this information.
You're trying to get them to disclose to you more in that interpersonal relationship. So it's not as directed.
And frankly, you know, it's one of the things that comes up when people are now trying to design systems and projects using AI and some aspects of chat GPT.
That's a predictive model, right? It's trying to figure out, okay, what's the next thing that's going to happen in this large language model.
It's not meant to redirect, it's not meant to be creative, it's not meant to divert.
Right?
So you need to be engaged at a human level with whomever your employees are, whoever your staff is, your creative people, you need to be personally involved with them and not fall down to, you know, we have a system here, so let's just stick with the system.
That's not going to create a lot of loyalty. It's not going to create an environment where people are comfortable in being creative. It's going to get people who are well within the bounds of your manual. That's really about it.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: You know, it's kind of funny because you're absolutely right.
You certainly don't want to handle communication the same way, whether you're dealing with a board meeting or contract negotiation as you would with your wife or children. Like, I'm glad you very clearly brought up the differences there and how it should be handled and treated. But you know, all in all, active listening is important, but there's also a time and a place to interject to speak up or to just listen with pure intent to understand, not to respond.
And I find that to be extremely valuable. As a matter of fact, there's. Once upon a time, I had to learn that very quickly in my, my young marriage that, okay, I've been a businessman for a long time. I've dealt with hard conversations, leading people.
It can't be the same way with my wife. It just does not work like that.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: But my, my wife jumped into a, I'll call it a conversation my wife, that I was having with our daughter, and she had to remind me, I'm not cross examining my daughter.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: I mean, that's, that's. Sometimes it just kind of comes out.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: So, you know, some of our skill set. That stays at the office. Yeah.
When the tie comes off. So should some of those, some of those techniques should as well.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: You know, there's been a few times where my wife was like, hey, you know, I know you're a good dad. You love our son, but he's not your employee, so just keep that in mind. I was like, oh, okay, let me put that in check. But, you know, as we talked a little bit about empathy and, you know, kind of in the advocacy, you know, advocacy side, you know, what role of, what's the role of empathy in effective advocacy? Whether it's in court or in the C suite? I mean, there's, there's definitely a combination there.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: But help us outline that you cannot be an effective leader unless you are empathic. You have to understand that your decision making has impacts far beyond the bottom line.
And in some cases, we have to remember our bottom line in management and leadership is a completely different bottom line than employees and contractors and vendors. So we need to keep that in our, in our heads that we're not the only people here and we have more than one role to fill.
So if I'm having conversation with one of my, as a lawyer, one of my paralegals, my legal assistant, that's at a different level. But I still have to understand, are they having a bad day? I have to remember, did you know, you know, did one of them. Are they a new grandparents? You know, did one of them, Are they just coming back from being sick?
So you need to be able to be empathic and have that bond with your, with your staff, with your employees.
You're much more likely to get a positive result from any course change, from any correction, from any constructive criticism.
If they know that you feel them, if you can make them understand that you understand them at an emotional level. And that you can meet them there as appropriate and try, especially if it's kind of bleeding into the workplace, you have the ability to both acknowledge that and be able to pull it back and be able to say this appropriate place for all that and it's not right here and it's not right now.
And say that in a way that empowers them to be able to have those feelings, but at a different time and place.
So really good point to help your leadership along the way. Much better than if you are following the manual. Much better if you are, you know, having group meetings that don't go anywhere, that don't mean anything to the group.
Right. You know, the meme, you know, this is another meeting that could have been an email
[00:32:23] Speaker A: that, that. Yeah, that's a very good way to put that. You know, it's kind of funny. As I'm chewing on this, I am a little bit curious because, you know, for somebody who's an experienced attorney, you've seen, you've seen things go amicably and things go really sideways. I'm kind of curious, you know, when it comes to really the best, I guess the best way I could ask you this is, is how should leaders and people think, just people in general think about listening for speaking when tensions run really high? You know, this, this applies to business and to, you know, dealing with divorces and custody battles. You know, listening for speaking when tensions run high. I'm curious what you think about this.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Have you ever heard of the concept of the, the peace of mind premium?
What are you willing, what are you willing to give for your own peace of mind?
Are you really going to want to say that in the meeting, knowing, knowing the grenade you just tossed in, Are you really want to say that?
What is your peace of mind worth to you?
And does this, whatever you're going to say, whatever action you're going to take, how does that help your peace of mind?
And that's really ultimately what it comes down to because at the end of the day, all of the 70 something clients, you know, five phone, you know, during the week, 70 something clients, 12 phone calls, four court hearings, I got enough on my plate.
I want some peace of mind, especially when I come back to the office and I just want to be able to make sure is when I'm not looking at something, is it still getting done if I'm not around, what's the productivity like?
And I should be able to be assured that my staff trusts me enough when I'm out of the office. I trust them when I'm not right.
So they know I trust them. I've got the bonded relationship with them that I should. And they will step into the breach for me without asking because I've developed that relationship with him. That's the sort of, that's the sort of hierarchy you want.
One where people are volunteering to step into the fray and not having to be pulled in because that's what the manual dictates.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: You know, that's, that's a, I mean that leads right into culture even. You know something, I find I can't remember who said it to me. I remember hearing this when I was very, very young.
But it said, you know, when, when it comes to listening versus versus speaking, especially when emotions get big, you were given two ears and one mouth for a reason.
Listen first, understand second, and speak last.
Wait to speak, way to open your mouth, wait to get information out there until you understand what it is you're supposed to be listening to and hearing. And I find that to be extremely important when tensions get high and stress really arises because we can make mistakes. And your peace of mind, like you said, is vitally important. So to our audience when we return, we close with decision making frameworks that leaders and people can use when those stakes get really high and when tension builds. So don't go anywhere again, grab coffee, stretch out, grab popcorn, whatever it is you've got to do. But come back to this conversation ready
[00:35:42] Speaker B: to learn foreign
[00:35:47] Speaker A: we are back on the bottom line with NOW Media Television streaming anytime on the NOW Media Television app available on Roku, iOS, Android or feel free to watch on Now Media TV.
You can find us on podcast platforms all over the place. But go to the website, you'll find the show there. You'll find plenty of other ways to watch or listen to us. And we're available anytime, anywhere with so much more than just business.
All right, we are still in an incredible conversation with Stephen Hillman. This has been, my goodness to say, full of wisdom is, is a very under way of selling this because honestly, if I should be taking notes myself and a lot of it's reconfirming things that I've thought I knew. But hearing it from somebody with this much experience is incredible. And in this segment, I want to dive into something a little bit different here. You know, leaders are defined by the decisions they make. Whether you're a parent, a spouse, a business owner, a coach, you know, leaders, your decisions matter, but especially when there's risk and uncertainty at the table.
So I want to dive into how do you decide with confidence, you know, when the outcome really does matter? So, Steven, thank you for being here. This is going to be a powerful conversation.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Thank you again, Ryan. It's great to be here.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: So, again, you know, in this segment, I really do want to walk through and, and talk about, you know, actionable, actionable frameworks for those tough decisions when we know there's a lot on the line because some of us might think we're decisive and, and quick to move forward. And, and we, we're certain about what we want. But when we've got a lot of weight on the other end of that decision, it can be difficult even for seasoned veterans and decisions. So coming from you, I'm excited about the perspectives here. But, you know, what process do you use to help clients make confident legal decisions?
[00:37:45] Speaker B: So usually when you get to the point where you've got that big linchpin decision, you've made a lot of smaller decisions on the way.
And the whole point is to make sure as you're guiding your client in those first steps, you don't lose sight of your goal.
And every step is goal directed first and foremost. If you're getting diverted, if you're getting into some kind of offshoot for some reason, that path better lead back to the goal for that client.
So your role when you're trying to help them make the decisions is trying to figure out, did our prior decisions set this up the right way, or are we now having to figure out how to get back on goal?
Hopefully you're not trying to figure that, that last part out. Hopefully you are. Have your decisions have led you to that threshold? We are now able to confidently step in and say, because of what we have already done, we're now ready to make this next step. But if not, why are we not ready?
And you have to be upfront with your client to be able to let them know now's not the right time.
We are not prepared to take this next step.
We need to negotiate delay, because you need to get your own client set up.
And it can be anything from, you've got funding issues, you're waiting for that last contract to sign.
Two, you've got to know, you know, what the grades are at school for a child. You know, are we going to have continuing coverage if we move and the doctors out of our area, that sort of thing.
Any one of those decisions leads to, am I able to step over this threshold to be able to make this next big step?
[00:39:34] Speaker A: That makes sense, yeah.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: But it's different than if There's a crisis decision that has to be made. There's some emergent situation, something's happened and you've got to really step in at that point. Those prior decisions are either going to be the foundation for you to be able to make a, a solid jump, or you're going to have to kick them back and you're going to have to start on a new path and get back to goal. And you have to remember, regardless of whether or not you're on a steady path or whether or not there's emergent situation, something drastic has come up. You have to, you as the advocate leader, you have to have your eyes on the goal.
And if you've been diverted, you have to put your eyes back on site, get it back in sight, get that goal back to our direction.
So if you're talking about negotiations going, going awry, especially if it is a high stakes, and especially if it is, you've got a meeting and you've got five, six people in a room.
There's nothing wrong with taking a break.
There's nothing wrong with taking a step back and taking a step out and reassess it.
If you don't, that means that your agenda is being set. That means your path is being followed, your goal is being achieved.
And if everybody in the room is on the same path, on the same goal, that's great.
But if your goal is not on the agenda, you got to take the step out. You've got to figure out how do I get back on the agenda, how do I get my clients sites back onto that goal?
[00:41:09] Speaker A: That's a great point. I mean, it is really easy, especially when stakes get high, to be distracted, to be dismayed, to start losing that focus. And that, that, I hate to say it like this, but that killer instinct, right? You know, it's, it's when things get serious and you feel that weight kind of building there, you know, if, hey, if I make the wrong move here, a lot of stuff can go bad, or I can lose a lot, or I can impact a lot of people's lives or whatever it may be.
It's easy to be distracted, but getting your eyes back on the target is extremely important. But I am curious though. How should a person balance that instinct with data and legal counsel?
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Paper cuts, right? Death by a thousand paper cuts, right?
Anything that you're doing, especially if you have the information, if you have the data, you're going to start just using it, slicing away, slicing away. You're going to use those small little pieces of information that are important for your client to get them to their goal. You're going to make sure those continue to be part of the ongoing conversation. You're going to keep on inserting those terms. You're going to keep on wanting to make sure that those paper cuts, those little events that they start to amount up to, big deal.
And that can push the negotiations back onto your client's goal. And it's important not to lose sight. Even those little victories, they can add up and they can mean something. And if it's your client's agenda that's getting achieved, they're going to be that much more appreciative of the work that you did. Especially if they know, through no fault of yours or theirs, that the negotiations you're not going to get to your goal. Hopefully you've got a number of options that you're going to want to. If you can't get goal A, okay, well, I've got option B, I've got option C.
Hopefully you're in that realm and your client appreciates the work that you're doing and you appreciate the work that you've brought for your client because that's ultimately all you can do.
Right. If I'm propelling my client's agenda, if I've got that mindset, if I'm goal oriented, who's going to complain about the work that I did?
[00:43:24] Speaker A: Great point. I mean, the fact is, you're dropping some nuggets of wisdom here where, you know, like you said, death by a thousand cuts. I get your point now. You know, one thing I can say, when it comes to balance, once again, I believe balance is a myth in, in most cases, especially when you bring instinct into the mix. But it's rhythm. It's finding that rhythm of, okay, what makes sense. Am I going overboard in this area? Am I utilizing my legal counsel correctly? Am I. You know, there's a lot of weight that goes into that, but at the same time, it's just navigating it in a way where you have the whole picture. You're not getting too hyper focused on something. But, you know, from the perspective, you know, a legal perspective, what's one mistake people often make when they try to decide too quickly?
[00:44:08] Speaker B: Overconfidence.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: They think, they think they've got their goal. They think that's the only goal. There's only one way to do this.
This is the way to do it. And if you're negotiated on their behalf and you're not doing it their way, it's your fault. Not that Their goal was wrong. Not that it was something that was unfair or should not have been achieved, but because you were not approaching the way that they wanted you to approach them. Things from this attitude of overconfidence, of it's a fail complete, there's no way, this is not going to happen.
That's where people fall off.
You always have to have a contingency and you should always have the idea that you're going to build up to that agreement. Those little decisions along the way, whether or not they're little decisions or paper cuts, all those decisions along the way should be propelling you to your client's goal, you to your goal. What do you want to accomplish?
All of that, the distractions, the tones of voices, the what I call anchor items that put out there, they're just thrown out and they're meant to stop negotiations and you got to waste your time hoisting anchor with getting on course.
All those tactics, keep your mind on the goal, just keep going.
[00:45:33] Speaker A: It's so funny because I can't, I'm trying so hard to keep it together with this because all I could picture right there with the anchors is like, I have a toddler at home and his delay tactics are absurd.
He, he likes to negotiate everything. He likes to throw delay tactics into everything. And it's like, I'm gonna throw this anchor in the mix and then dad's gonna have to sit here and pull it up while I get to goof around more and I'm getting closer to getting my way.
And it's, it, it just, it kind of, it's funny to me because I'm starting to kind of see, based on what you're talking about, how that applies to real life in, in business and in negotiation and all together. It's sometimes those distracted, you know, distraction tactics are a big way to throw you off your game and to completely change the playing field. But I love that it was a great, you know, mental image there and just made me think of my ridiculous toddler son. But, you know, where can our audience find you? This conversation has been incredible. There's a lot of impact that's here. Where can they find you? Where can they learn more about you and how can they work with you?
[00:46:31] Speaker B: So my, my website is dub dub dub. And then h f l g.com the Hiddleman family Law Group, we're online. We do all family law representation in California, which is everything from the determination of parentage to modifications of support.
I do a lot of work in the representation of victims of domestic violence, violence, as well as custody modifications.
So we're a full service firm and have been in Orange county Now for over 30 years and it's been a great experience to be able to represent people in the community. I've been have the opportunity to be a teacher and teach issues in domestic violence and child support and spousal support. Been able to sit as a school called a judge pro tem. I get to play play judge for a day.
And I've been in leadership roles in the county and the state and it has been a fantastic opportunity.
And for anybody who thinks that family law is just pots and pans, you're right.
But they're very expensive pots and pans. Right.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: I love how you put that. So thank you again for being here with us today. This has been an incredible episode. Thank you. You, you, you definitely complimented the bottom line, big time. To our audience, this has been fantastic. We talked about negotiation, communication, advocacy, and so much more. And, and I, I recommend look back, take notes, keep this in your back pocket because there's a lot of good information here. Now, again, I'm your host, Ryan Herpin. And this has been the bottom line, where clarity becomes confidence and strategy produces results.
So remember, success isn't given, it's earned. And earning it means you might have to do some hard things for a long time.
